Collected House Rules & Requests

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Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Popdart5 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:17 am

Here's a place where we can define some of the prickly issues and vague rules that come up during games so that we can have some consistency between our various games. People are free to use or ignore these collected rules as they see fit however this can be a general resource for everyone.

Feel free to request specific rulings on certain matters if they haven't been addressed or you want to clarify something.

I'll start things off with one that seems to be fairly widely used.

1. Psychic powers are based on the new system introduced in Dark Heresy 2E and further expanded by the custom psychic powers in the other thread. Fettering a power makes it easier to perform but less powerful (+10 to Focus Power test for each point of Psy rating below your maximum PR), while pushing grants more oomph but is harder to control (-10 to Focus Power test for each point of Psy rating above your maximum PR with an increased chance of causing Psychic Phenomena depending on your Psychic strength [Bound/Unbound/Daemonic]).
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Skits on Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:43 am

As discussed in the other thread, Minor Manifestations are Free to sustain, and while being sustained do not lower your effective Psy Rating.
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Skits on Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:02 pm

Did we wanna hash out/clarify what we're doing with the whole Master Chirurgeon/Superior Chirurgeon T3 talent here?

Here's the descriptions/effects for them from each core rulebook:

Deathwatch:
Master Chirurgeon
Prerequisites: Medicae +10
The character gains a +10 bonus on all Medicae Tests. If treating a Heavily or
Critically Damaged patient, a successful test heals 2 Wounds instead of 1. If the patient is in danger of losing a limb from a Critical Hit, the character provides the patient with a +20 bonus to the Toughness Test to prevent limb loss.

Black Crusade:
Master Chirurgeon
Tier: 3
Prerequisite: Medicae +10
The character gains a +10 bonus on all Medicae Skill Tests. Any successful heal
attempt (including Heavily and Critically wounded patients) by the character heals 2 additional Wounds. If his patient is in danger of losing a limb from a Critical Hit, the character provides the patient with a +20 bonus to the Toughness Test to prevent limb loss.

Only War:
Master Chirurgeon
Tier: 3
Prerequisite: Medicae +10
Aptitudes: Intelligence, Fieldcraft
The character gains a +10 bonus on all Medicae Skill Tests. If the character fails their Medicae Test while performing Extended Care, they reduces the amount of Damage suffered by their patience due to their failure by an amount equal to their Intelligence Bonus. If their patient is in danger of losing a limb from a Critical Hit, the character provides the patient with a +20 bonus to the Toughness Test to prevent limb loss.

Dark Heresy:
Superior Chirurgeon
Tier: 3
Prerequisite: Rank 2 in the Medicae skill (Medicae +10)
Aptitudes: Intelligence, Fieldcraft
The character gains a +20 bonus on all Medicae skill tests. When providing first aid, they ignore the penalties for Heavily Damaged patients and only suffer a –10 penalty for those suffering Critical damage.

I figure the simplest thing to do would just be mash them all together, with a little bit of tweaking to merge the Deathwatch's "2 wounds instead of 1 only on Heavily/Critically damaged" and the Black Crusade's "2 additional wounds to ANY heal check". I'm not fond of the idea of making ANOTHER talent to split up the various effects or whatever.
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Popdart5 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:33 pm

I'll have to look into it further but the Only War version seems to already cross over into another Only War talent which doesn't make any sense.

Methodical Care
Tier: 2
Prerequisite: Intelligence 40, Swift Suture
Aptitudes: Intelligence, Knowledge
Whenever one of this character’s patients would suffer Damage from a failed Test made as part of the Extended Care Special Use of the Medicae Skill, this character may reduce that Damage by an amount equal to his Intelligence Bonus.

I'd probably look to go with the Black Crusade version as a tier 3 version and the Dark Heresy Superior Chirurgeon as a tier 2 talent with reduced prerequisites and only granting +10 to Medicae. I wouldn't have Superior Chirurgeon as a prerequisite for Master Chirurgeon though as that would be too punishing experience-wise.

Good work on gathering the various versions Skits. This isn't as simple a fix as I had hoped.
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Skits on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:06 pm

Yeah, no kidding! Every single version does something slightly different. I didn't realise there was the overlap with Methodical Care either, but yeah, that makes very little sense.

Even if we do your suggestion of the BC Master Chirurgeon T3 and Superior Chirurgeon as T2, that's still a hell of a lot of exp if someone also wants to get the Methodical Care thing as well.

So here's a breakdown of the various effects from all the mentioned talents so far:

- +10 to all Medicae checks
- Reduce damage by Int Bonus if Extended Care check is failed.
- When successfully treating Heavily/Critically wounded, heal 2 instead of 1.
- Any successful heal (Including Heavily/Critically wounded) heals an additional 2.
- Give +20 to Toughness test to prevent Limb Loss.
- When providing First Aid, ignore penalties for Heavily Wounded, and only suffer -10 penalty for Critically Wounded.

Perhaps merge the 3rd and 4th effects into "When successfully treating Lightly Wounded, heal an additional 2. When treating Heavily/Critically wounded, heal 2 instead of 1." Or we could just keep it as "Any successful heal (inc. Heavy/Crit) heals an additional 2 wounds" which means Heavy/Crit would actually heal 3 wounds.

We've also gotta take into account the usefulness of these talents when used on people who have things that make them count as always only Lightly Wounded. EG If someone has Dark Heresy's Superior Chirurgeon, and the majority of the party ends up with Hardy/Autosanguine (which seems to happen a lot with us! XD ), then that T3 talent - and all the XP spent on it - is basically wasted.

IDK, I'm no good at this rules balancing thing. Just my thoughts on this so far!
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Popdart5 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:29 pm

Keeping the 4th effect from Black Crusade for medicae seems to be the best of that immediate healing of extra damage. I don't the specific rate of healing when applying first aid so I don't know how that would affect healing while lightly wounded. It also doesn't help that first aid and medicae in general changed considerably from the older versions in pre-Dark Heresy to the new Dark Heresy version. I'll have to look and see if any changes might accidentally break healing.

The usefulness of certain talents (and psychic powers for that matter) has always bugged me as there are certainly some trap options or niche abilities that will only ever work in very specific circumstances or get outclassed by higher talents up the chain. The medicae talents regarding blood loss are very, very specific and are unlikely to ever happen. I know new Dark Heresy cut a lot of superfluous talents out (such as simplifying the called shot stuff) and that simpler is not always better but it does get annoying when experience gets wasted like that. Cybernetics are especially guilty of that because you could just get certain stuff, like autosanguine/black blood, and gain the effect of a talent by gaining gear.

We'll see what we can come up with for Superior/Master Chirurgeon but it might be worth it to comb through and try and condense some of the other talents/psychic powers to remove experience traps/tar pits. It might be worth it to scale down elements of the talents into a T1 rather than a T2/T3 to mitigate some of the experience costs.
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Comander.c on Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:50 pm

I'll take a closer look tonight, pref with one or both of you on skype, but my 2c- use the Only War rules as they are, work them into a Talent/series of Talents of a balanced Tier.

What other significantly unique bonuses were there that were not in the OW version/s?

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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Skits on Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:30 pm

- +10 to all Medicae checks
- Reduce damage by Int Bonus if Extended Care check is failed.
- Give +20 to Toughness test to prevent Limb Loss.

- When successfully treating Heavily/Critically wounded, heal 2 instead of 1.
- Any successful heal (Including Heavily/Critically wounded) heals an additional 2.
- When providing First Aid, ignore penalties for Heavily Wounded, and only suffer -10 penalty for Critically Wounded.

The ones in red are the Only War specific version of Master Chirurgeon. The rest are from the other various versions.

Personally, I'd rather use the Deathwatch or Black Crusade versions as a base - the Only War version would honestly be my LAST choice.
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Comander.c on Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:46 pm

Which ones are the ones the OW one doesn't have?

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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Skits on Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:50 pm

The ones that AREN'T in red. Razz
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Comander.c on Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:59 pm

Including the +10?

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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Skits on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:02 pm

ALL of them have the +10 Medicae (except for Superior Chirurgeon that has +20 but I think we all agreed that was ridiculous and to leave it as +10).
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Comander.c on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:02 pm

I'll jump on when I'm home, gotta bring up the rulebook but I'm pretty sure that the rule was changed to reflect the fact that first aid changed. Eg; the Deathwatch rule is actually redundant. The chaos rule may be a carry over of that same redundancy buffed up, before they just buffed all first aid by OW.

Will explain more and check stuff when I'm home and can also skype to avoid wall of text Razz (Tho ill still put up a summary hear for records sake and the benefit of others)

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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Popdart5 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:57 pm

Having thought about this a bit, I think there might be two options:

1. Combine Black Crusade and Dark Heresy versions for a great Master talent. The only downside is that this is likely far too overpowered for a single talent.

Tier: 3
Prerequisite: Rank 2 in the Medicae skill (Medicae +10)
Aptitudes: Intelligence, Fieldcraft
The character gains a +10 bonus on all Medicae skill tests. Any successful heal
attempt (including Heavily and Critically wounded patients) by the character heals 2 additional Wounds. If his patient is in danger of losing a limb from a Critical Hit, the character provides the patient with a +20 bonus to the Toughness Test to prevent limb loss. When providing first aid, they ignore the penalties for Heavily Damaged patients and only suffer a –10 penalty for those suffering Critical damage.

2. Basically the same combination as above but removing the +10 bonus to Medicae. That might help reduce the overpowered-ness of the above version.

The Only War version is absolutely useless considering Methodical Care does the exact same thing so I have no real regrets at dropping that version.
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Comander.c on Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:26 pm

I'm disinclined to modify the OW Core book version, Its actually pretty well rounded and fits for the version of first aid we are using.

Even at Tier 3, it does Alot for a single talent, so adding more makes it rather OP in that regard.

Also most all existing Core medic's already have it in its current form Razz

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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Popdart5 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:05 pm

I've had a chance to think it over and in my failing internet last night I came to a conclusion. Considering the changes that we've made to Critical Hits and Critical Damage, along with our general treatment of the new Dark Heresy stuff, I'm inclined to ignore the Dark Heresy version entirely and stick with the Black Crusade version of Master Chirurgeon. The Only War is already covered by Methodical Care and I don't think the writers knew that they had effectively made the same talent twice.

That's my impression on what we should work with. It also further conforms to the general idea that new Dark Heresy is nice but is generally ignored due to being almost too easy at times.
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Popdart5 on Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:09 pm

After tossing it around in my head last night, I kind of want to try something regarding psychic powers. I was thinking of maybe using some sort of cap or limit on the number of psychic powers that someone can learn. Perhaps something like:

You can know up to a number of psychic powers equal to double your Willpower Bonus plus your Psy Rating (or 2 x WPB + PR).

What is everyone's thoughts on this? I'm not sure how many psychic powers people usually get so I don't know if this would cut into people's characters at all. I'm not planning to use it yet but I'm just considering something to help psychic powers.
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Skits on Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:03 pm

Hmm. I'm not keen on the idea - it seems pretty limiting to me, especially since upping Psy Rating is such an experience sink. And from what I vaguely recall, there's already a limit on how many different types of psychic powers (biomancy, telepathy, etc.) a character can learn based on... either their Willpower Bonus or Psy Rating, I can't remember which.

Would this limit you're suggestiong include Minor Manifestations and/or powers from the Universal tree?

Just for the record, here are the number of psychic powers my various characters have atm, including Minor Manifestations and Universal powers. The number in brackets is their WPBx2 + PR as you suggested. Assuming it's (WPBx2) + PR and not 2x(WPB+PR), anyway. XD Mathematical orders of operations is not my strong point.

Fariad: 16 (16)

Jahi: 19 (15)

Atash: 14 (13)

Siamak: 12 (16)

So yeah, most of my characters have already either hit or exceeded that suggested powers cap as it is.

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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Popdart5 on Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:05 am

I'm not aware of any limitation on the number of disciplines that a character can learn. What I did find is on page 13 of the Introduction of the homebrew psychic powers which says that a character can only possess a number of technique trees equal to his [the character's] current psy rating. I don't know if that impacts on any of your characters Skits but it does exist in some capacity. For the record, Chaos psychic powers from either one of the gods or Undivided are not counted as separate techniques. Minor Manifestations and Universal powers are also exempt.

Your order of operations is correct however I didn't realise that all of your characters had acquired so many psychic powers. Having reread psychic powers as a whole, I kinda want to alter things a little. Perhaps something like:

Max number of psychic powers that can be learned = Intelligence Bonus + Willpower Bonus + Psy Rating (INTB + WPB + PR). In addition, each rank in Forbidden Lore: the Warp and Forbidden Lore: Psykers adds +1 to this threshold. This threshold only applies to the main discipline psychic powers and the psychic powers available to Chaos sorcerers and psykers. Minor Manifestations and Universal psychic powers are not included.

It sort of makes sense to tie INT into the equation because smarter psykers are more adept at using the Warp rather than relying just on raw power and strength of will. The Forbidden Lore skills also make sense in allowing greater usage of the Warp based on the psyker's understanding and knowledge in how to shape and control it. Sure you can just brute force it but careful study certainly will help.

The revised equation and the removal of the Minor Manifestations and Universal stuff should put your characters in the following position (apologies if I've got any of this wrong):

Fariad: 13 (17)

Jahi: 15 (16)

Atash: 7 (13)

Siamak: 10 (16)

This is all just theoretical at this point so I intend to dabble with it a lot further before even thinking of using it in a game.
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Comander.c on Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:57 am

Skits already pointed this out, but yes, there is already a limit.

Page 13 of introduction to the psy system wrote:"Technique Limit
Once a character purchases a Basic Technique power in
a discipline, he possesses that technique and can purchase
other powers from that technique tree (provided he meets all
of the aforementioned requirements). He can, though, only
possess a number of technique trees equal to his current
psy rating. Once he possesses a number of technique trees
equal to his psy rating, the character cannot purchase the
top-most power in an un-possessed discipline until he raises
his psy rating"

A technique tree isn't an entire school, its actually just one branch of a school. So each PR opens one branch of one school.

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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Skits on Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:35 am

Yeah, those numbers look about right, if I'm understanding things correctly.

And yeah, that was the rule I was thinking of! Unfortunately I don't think I ever really remembered to remember it; after looking back over their sheets, I've already broken this "limit" on Atash, Jahi and Siamak (mostly because roleplay/fluff - no matter their discipline, every single one of my boys has Telepathic Link hammered into them by their Chapter, and Siamak has Inferno because Roleplay Reasons). Fariad broke it as well for a while before I last upped his PR again, he's sitting on his psy rating number of trees right now. So yeah, I've messed up there quite a bit. D: I'll probably hafta up Ash and Jahi's PR ASAP.

I've adjusted their sheets a bit to separate out and better show each "tree", to help me keep track of that in the future. Oh and I made a mistake with spending Jahi's latest exp, he doesn't actually have Telekine Dome yet 'cause he doesn't have the required PR 4. Whoops. I've also put his "Kine Arm" in with the Telekine Shield tree, since that makes the most sense to me for where it would fit in.

But anyway, the whole Technique Limit thing aside - I really don't see the point in limiting the number of powers a psyker can learn. Psychic powers can already be so damn situational as it is (eg. out of his sixteen psychic powers, Fariad has really only used FOUR even remotely regularly the entire game so far - the rest just haven't been relevant yet, and most of them probably never will be), and they already have built-in risks to their use that can be quite significant (*coughcough*surprisedaemonprince*cough*).

There are also the already existing prerequisites for each power, be that WP or PR or whatever, so a player will most likely have been spending experience beforehand just to meet those prerequisites. Limiting the number of powers a character can get will just turn being a psyker into even MORE of a focused xp sink than it already is. Especially if they hit their power limit and want to up it - oh, spend 800 or 1000 or 1200 or whatever xp to up your PR and THEN spend the xp to get ONE more power! Or spend 250+500 or 500+750 or 750+1250 xp - assuming you have both aptitudes! - to up your WP or Int TWO stages just to get ONE more power! Or 200, 300, or 400 xp - again, assuming you have both aptitudes! - in Forbidden Lore just to get, oh look, ONE more power! So if a psyker character wants to focus on, y'know, being a psyker that's useful in more than ONE situation, then they can just completely forget about being able to do anything else at all ever because all their xp will most likely end up being funnelled into Int/WP/PR/Forbidden Lores.

As it is right now, if a player's willing to sink whatever experience into psychic powers at the expense of being able to do other things, well that's their choice and they should be able to. I mean, hell, I don't see anyone suggesting that a heavily melee-focused character should only be able to buy a limited number of melee-based talents based on their weapon skill bonus or whatever. "Oh, you want to get Crushing Blow? Too bad, you've already got Quick Draw and Swift Attack and Lightning Attack and Sure Strike and Killing Strike and Counterattack, that's your six melee talents based on your Weapon Skill! You're just gonna hafta up your Weapon Skill once or twice before you can get Crushing Blow!"

Limiting the number of powers also means that players are probably just going to focus on the ones that are the best bang-for-buck, so to speak, and not bother with the more utility/situational/fluffier/flavoursome/character or roleplay-based powers that add a bit of variety and interest to the game.

Just for the record, too, I also don't think my collection of boys really make a good baseline to be looking at this from. They're all deliberately focused in Intelligence and Willpower and Knowledges right from creation because Background Fluff, so they've all got an almost unnaturally high number of available powers (even poor dumb Atash, that muppet). And because they're also Astartes, they haven't really focused as much on their psychic powers as other non-Astartes psykers might - they've had other things to prioritise their xp on.


Last edited by Skits on Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Popdart5 on Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:52 am

I'm looking at things from a different angle so I admit that I don't really know what the end result of all of this will be. My main concern is that the expanded psychic rules that we're using has made using psychic powers more problematic. You're right that psychic powers are a fairly significant experience sink compared to almost everything else (eg. melee, knowledge, etc) however the expanded lists has made it even more expensive. As you said Skits, the majority of your psychic powers are so dang situational that you will likely never use them and I'm presuming that you mostly got those psychic powers as stepping stones to the more useful abilities. That problem is something that should definitely be addressed before I even consider applying any limitations.

I'm coming at this from both a game balance and a lore angle. I'm not as well versed in 40K as you guys are but I'm not aware of even supremely powerful mortal psykers like Eldar Farseers or Ahriman being able to meld the warp into whatever they want. They can do a lot of stuff and they are very powerful but they can't do everything.

In terms of gameplay, I can't really think of any other game that allows completely free reign to learn all of the magic spells or psychic powers that are available. Pathfinder and D&D have casting limits and spells per level and I think even something like Shadowrun restricts your casting to a specific group of spells (I will double check that though). Even the older versions of the 40K RPGs (DH 1E, RT, DW) were quite restrictive in the number of psychic powers that a psyker could learn while still retaining a similar level of requirement. I would have to check but I think even very high level characters were unlikely to have more than 20 psychic powers.

The limit on the number of techniques is an okay way of restricting psychic powers but it's a very odd way of limiting player options and it's a rather obscure rule. My opinion is that limiting the number of psychic powers would be more appropriate than limiting the technique trees because a single technique tree still allows approximately 10 psychic powers in the technique tree. Plus, then we can have situations like Siamak where you can pick up something outside your current technique trees without being blocked by the rules and we don't accidentally exceed the limits. The only comparison that I can think of is if all spellcasters in Pathfinder were limited to a certain number of schools of magic depending on their level rather than the number of spells that they can know or have in their spellbook. It seems a bit of a daft limitation.

Regarding your last point, I think it's appropriate that the Shadowed Suns/Thousand Sons should be towards the higher tier in terms of how many psychic powers they can wield. Smart and/or studious psykers having access to more ways that they can control warp energies makes sense in my mind. Of course, I will need to change the power limit and potentially go through and remove a tonne of the experience sink/trap psychic powers so that it actually is more beneficial to spend experience and allows greater flexibility in diversifying a character rather than just being a psyker.
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Skits on Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:54 pm

After reading the Ahriman trilogy... Ahriman can basically manipulate the warp to just about do whatever the hell he wants. XD Granted, he's a very special case, heh, and not many other psykers are going to get even anywhere NEAR his level of power. Going by the tabletop rules (that I remember anyway), Ahriman had access to every single psychic power ever.

But as for lore, there are some damn powerful psykers. I mean, hell, in the Thousand Sons book you've got a telekine who manages to hold a telekine dome against a blast from an Eldar Titan. Another who took control of a Warlord Titan with his mind and was firing Titan-size pyroblasts from its main weapon. There are ones who can completely immolate multiple people with a mere thought, or wipe out a squad of people with a single blast of lightning, or control entire legions of cataphracti battle robots. Another psyker in another book towed an entire cruiser through space for a month with his mind. Ravenor can mind-puppet multiple people from orbit. And those are just the tip of the iceberg that I can remember off the top of my head.

Psykers can be powerful, which is why the Imperium in general fears them. That was almost the entire point behind the Edict of Nikea - people feared what psykers were capable of.

And psychic powers are dangerous, not just to the target, but to the psyker themselves and everyone around them, as we've already seen on multiple occasions. Being a psyker is already such a risk/reward thing, why limit it even more?

But anyway, I'm not sure what you mean by psychic powers now being more problematic? I'm honestly not seeing an issue so far. We don't have completely free reign to learn all of the powers - even putting aside the PRxTechnique Trees limit, there are prerequisites to start with, and it's not always just PR or WP. Some powers require a certain Strength or Agi or WS/BS, or having things like Counterattack or Unremarkable. There are also the Mastery talents - if someone takes that talent for, say, Biomancy Mastery then they should be able to learn as many powers as they want from that discipline, because that's their main focus - but they won't be able to learn anything from any other discipline. That's another built-in limit that already exists.

Limiting the technique trees also makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than arbitrarily limiting the number of powers, honestly. Especially from a fluff point of view - it makes sense to me that, say, a healing-focused biomancer will easily be able to learn more biomancy skills from within his particular healing-focused tree, but might struggle with learning something from, say, the inflicting pain/injuries biomancy tree, or anything from pyromancy or telekinesis in general. (Technically Siamak shouldn't have Inferno at all since he doesn't have ANY of the prerequisites, but roleplay happened and I'm not going to argue with Dingo about it. XD)

It doesn't make sense to me that someone could learn a little bit of something from every discipline, and honestly, most people won't spread themselves out that much anyway, because to get to the good stuff, you have to focus on only one or two disciplines in the first place. And if you limit the number of psy powers available, people are just going to focus even more on a single discipline just to get to the stuff that's really useful/powerful, and ignore the potentially interesting/utility/roleplay-based powers from other disciplines.

Personally, outside of Universal powers and all my boys having Telepathic Link because background fluff reasons, I've always limited them to their main discipline and maybe one side discipline at most anyway. Atash is straight-up Pyromancy (I still headcanon that his Machine Empathy tree is based in pyromancy and not telekinesis Razz), Jahi is Telekinesis and he's only expanded his Telepathy because roleplay, Siamak's mostly a straight-up Biomancer (ignoring the Infero thing, and also ignoring Aura Reading being Divination since I got that because of roleplay reasons), and Fariad's entirely Divination.

I think that rule was also mostly based on Dark Heresy 2, where every discipline only had a single tree - mostly because of the wording of "the character cannot purchase the top-most power in an un-possessed discipline" versus the fact that each discipline in the expanded psy powers doesn't HAVE a single top-most power, they have THREE "top-most" powers.

I'd say perhaps limit people to number of disciplines based on PR instead of technique trees, if you wanted to fiddle with that. It's basically what I've been subconsciously doing anyway for all my boys - if we go by disciplines instead of technique trees, then all of them (even Siamak WITH Inferno!) are within their discipline limit based on their PR. It's also a HELL of a lot easier to keep track of than INT + WP + PR + F. Lore Psykers + F. Lore Warp. I don't want to have to look at a bajillion different numbers every time I want to buy a new psychic power just to make sure I'm still within my limit. I don't see the point in complicating things even further.

As for Fariad's situational powers... honestly, there are a couple that I'm not even sure WHY I got them in the first place. XD I've never used them, they don't even lead to anything I'm interested in, and if I could, I'd totally drop them and get that xp back and spend it on other stuff that I might actually use. ¬_¬
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Popdart5 on Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:52 pm

I wasn't certain if there were mortals who had such psychic ability but I suppose Ahriman is a special case. Colour me corrected.

Psychic powers have always been very high risk and high reward however I think these new rules kinda shifted things into reducing the risk factor almost too much. Even before these rules, I'm aware that the inclination to pigeon-hole a psyker and gain more psychic powers and PR was always prevalent however it was about on par with a melee warrior wanting to get really good at melee. Over-emphasis on one part of a character leads to an unbalanced character. The new psychic rules with the new powers and talents enabled maximisation in one element of a character (WP and psychic stuff) without really needing to focus on anything else aside from the occasional characteristic increase or talent purchase to get a prerequisite. The new powers added a lot of versatility and utility to what psykers can do with just their minds while the talents really helped to remove some of the risk associated with being a psyker and granted some nifty new tools as well.

It's a problem with the overall 40K RPG system. Min-maxing is really, really easy with this system and the new psychic rules make that even easier so my original idea was to try and curtail that a bit. As you've said though, placing caps on the number of psychic powers contradicts the lore and also doesn't really benefit anyone, even those who stick to the same group of psychic powers. So yeah, the formula and the power cap are stuff that will definitely not be used.

I think limiting the disciplines using PR rather than limiting the techniques does make sense. However I still feel that limiting the individual techniques in some way would make sense to reflect that something like healing biomancers would struggle to pick up injuries biomancy as easily. How would you look at potentially limiting the techniques?
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Re: Collected House Rules & Requests

Post by Skits on Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:05 pm

Min-maxing is ALWAYS gonna be an issue, it's not just limited to psykers. As a player, if I decide to min-max, I need to be aware of the fact that the GM can and will hit me in the min, where the max won't work. And yeah, players can build powerful psykers - but so can the GMs. All the tricks the players can use, the GMs can also use right back at them. And if a heavily psy-reliant character/party happen to stumble into, say, some kinda psychic deadzone where the warp's been walled off one way or another... ehehehehehehe. Which, btw, is a thing in the fluff. It's entirely possible to have areas where the warp just. Doesn't. Work. for whatever reasons you care to think of. Null fields, nulls/pariahs in general, ancient artifacts that drain the warp from one area to power another, warding, naturally-occurring deadspots in the warp, weird alien psy-resistant materials, whatever.

And those talents that help reduce the risk of using psychic powers still cost a fair chunk of xp, are generally a once-per-session deal - and not everyone will always have all or even ANY of them. Atash didn't have any of those talents, and he basically died (and almost potentially killed the REST of the squad) when shit went sideways. Jahi has the thing that gives him a default phenomena, but it still doesn't work if he happens to rolls perils, so if he does, he's screwed. I've been lucky so far with him, mostly because of willpower re-rolls - which also don't count for all the powers since a lot of them are off psyniscience or perception, not just WP. I've already had to fate point a few poor rolls to avoid Shit Going Wrong. If Siamak or Fariad roll phenomena or perils, they're also potentially screwed, depending on what the dice say, since neither of them have ANYTHING (apart from the willpower rerolls/spending fate points) to minimise the risk. And because I don't really have anything to counter the risk, I rarely TAKE the risk without damn good reason.

As for the disciplines/trees... given that each discipline right now really only has three trees, I'm not sure I'd bother putting in some kind of limit. Yeah, a healing biomancer may have some trouble with injury biomancy... but they also may find that stuff easier to pick up than anything in another discipline because they're just reversing what they normally do. It's all still within the same discipline.
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